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#251 lucky 2

Posted 23 December 2012 - 11:47 AM

QUOTE
So I would strongly argue that the issue is not, in fact, unrealistic expectations, or these issues being entirely out of the realms of their expertise. If you read information from the ABA, as I had, before calling them, you might be very shocked indeed by the hard line response of the person on the other end of the phone. And criticism of this is highly reasonable.

We are back again to the problem of inconsistent advice about infant feeding amongst the ABA Counsellors.
They are not always living up expectations of their training, role and the women.
I would include the expectation of the service by the users, that has to be considered a factor, maybe not the major one though.
Since the helpline has a high rate of "customer satisfaction" then it is not the majority who perform at a lower level.
It is exactly the same with health professionals, inconsistencies in knowledge (or perhaps the retention of knowledge, understanding or even interest in that knowledge) and practice/advice.
Feedback is important for all services, informal (ie. ABA) or formal (Hosps etc as care given in the postnatal period attracts the most dissatisfaction and complaint, there has been a lot of study as too why this is so).
I see these issues as linked, ie the distress of early feeding issues and dissatisfaction with both informal and formal care or help.

#252 **Tiger*Filly**

Posted 23 December 2012 - 02:29 PM

----

Edited by Tyrone Finkelmeyer, 26 March 2013 - 08:46 PM.


#253 Melidia

Posted 23 December 2012 - 03:46 PM

QUOTE
That's why breastfeeding is promoted - because statistically it keeps babies healthier and costs the government less money in the long and short term.


It's not being promoted - it's being pushed to the exclusion of all else, with absolutely no regard for the woman, baby's or family's circumstances or individual needs.  The message isn't 'breast is best' - it is 'breast is all there is'.   It's an ideal substance for feeding an infant, not the only one.

Giving women the idea that they must sacrifice their own physical and mental health in order to provide breast feeding (not even expressed EBM in a bottle is approved by some!) to their babies is wrong, no matter what spin you put on it.


QUOTE
It is insulting and degrading ..... to constantly suggest to women who for whatever reason, aren't entirely successful with breastfeeding or simply find it awful and don't want to do it...that there must be something WRONG with them if they don't do it


I agree.  Or that they are selfish, or lazy, or aren't a very good mother.  The all-or-nothing mentality really gets me.  People who want to comp feed, or mix feed, or do anything to make their lives more manageable often end up fully formula feeding because they DON'T get the support in order to make even a part-time breastfeeding relationship work, but instead face condemnation and judgment for wanting (or needing) to do something other than sit and feed a baby for years on end.

Edited by Grey, 23 December 2012 - 03:53 PM.


#254 CupOfCoffee

Posted 23 December 2012 - 05:20 PM

I am someone who almost 15 years ago had a bad experience with the ABA (I exclusively express fed for 2 months with him, against the advice and criticism of the ABA at the time).  

It is the reason why, when I had the same breastfeeding issues again with my daughter (almost 4 years ago) I told the nurse in no uncertain terms, I want to bottle feed (and didn't need someone to come talk to me).  I felt like I missed the first 2 months of my sons life because of the whole experience, I wasn't doing that again.

I see motherhood holistically now, not just needing to succeed at one thing, I need to succeed overall.  So my view is being kind to women, and forgiving of myself, is the best way to have positive outcomes.

#255 Jane Jetson

Posted 23 December 2012 - 05:44 PM

QUOTE (*magenta* @ 23/12/2012, 09:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Which bit says they help with all feeding issues?

https://www.breastfeeding.asn.au/aboutaba


Which bit says using nipple shields and EBM don't count as breastfeeding?

QUOTE (*magenta* @ 23/12/2012, 09:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think they called the ABA for breastfeeding advice, but were hoping, perhaps unconsciously, the ABA would give them permission to move to formula feeding.


What garbage. I wanted to breastfeed exclusively. So many of the posts in this thread are from women who were seeking help to *save* their breastfeeding relationship, yet this is continually ignored.

#256 Guest_bottle~rocket_*

Posted 23 December 2012 - 05:59 PM

QUOTE (katpaws @ 23/12/2012, 09:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What evidence?


The Australian national infant feeding survey showed that the breastfeeding initiation rate was 96%, and that over 9 out of 10 women intended to breastfeed.
http://www.aihw.gov.au/media-release-detail/?id=10737420970

#257 katpaws

Posted 23 December 2012 - 06:14 PM

QUOTE
The Australian national infant feeding survey showed that the breastfeeding initiation rate was 96%, and that over 9 out of 10 women intended to breastfeed.


That doesn't have anything to do with your statement:

QUOTE
But the evidence is that the majority of women do want to breastfeed, and some of thse women are being let down by a lack of adequate support and services in the postnatal period.


The only thing that link said about women not breastfeeding was:

QUOTE
‘Wanting to share feeding responsibilities with their partner’ and ‘previously unsuccessful breastfeeding experiences’ were the two most common reasons for not breastfeeding. Many women also felt that formula was just as good as breastmilk.


Medical reasons for mother was another reason for not breastfeeding.

WOmen not continuing with breastfeeding:

QUOTE
The most cited reason for not continuing breastfeeding was ‘not enough breastmilk for child’. However, this reason was cited by only of 13% mothers/carers whose child stopped receiving breastmilk after 12 months of age, compared with 56% of mothers/carers whose child stopped receiving breastmilk when aged 6 months or less (Table 4.2). Those children who stopped receiving any breastmilk when they were aged more than 12 months did so because ‘child was old enough to stop’ (63%) or ‘child lost interest’ (33%).


I don't dispute that many women want to breastfeed but i dispute your claim that women don't do it due to a lack of support and services. These reasons were not in the provided responses of mothers for discontinuing or not undertaking breastfeeding. I believe that the reasons why women don't breastfeed or discontinue with BFing can be quite complex and that stating "they don't do it due to lack of support and services" can minimise the experiences of many women. ETA: I do acknowledge that for some women having a lack of adequate services and support may influence their decision to or ability to BF, I just don't think that this is the case for all women.


So, still waiting for the evidence.

Edited by katpaws, 23 December 2012 - 06:59 PM.


#258 Guest_bottle~rocket_*

Posted 23 December 2012 - 07:12 PM

I meant that there is evidence that the majority of women do want to breastfeed.  I didn't mean to imply there is also evidence about lack of breastfeeding support letting women down.  Apologies if I was unclear.

I think the fact that 9 out of 10 women intend to breastfeed when they are pregnant, and that the breastfeeding initiation rate is 96%, are good indicators that the majority of women do want to breastfeed.  I don't know of any research specifically addressing that question.

Edited by bottle~rocket, 24 December 2012 - 08:07 AM.


#259 Lolpigs

Posted 25 December 2012 - 09:08 AM

QUOTE (bottle~rocket @ 23/12/2012, 08:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I meant that there is evidence that the majority of women do want to breastfeed.  I didn't mean to imply there is also evidence about lack of breastfeeding support letting women down.  Apologies if I was unclear.

I think the fact that 9 out of 10 women intend to breastfeed when they are pregnant, and that the breastfeeding initiation rate is 96%, are good indicators that the majority of women do want to breastfeed.  I don't know of any research specifically addressing that question.


I think the pretense that breastfeeding is easy really got to me when I had issues. All this time I was told how wonderful it was, and how easy it was, and it was anything but.

A bit of honesty with women would probably go along way. Why would you stick at something you had been told was wonderful and easy, and then to find out it is really hard and difficult? You feel like a failure, and with the combined attitude of "you must not have tried hard enough" really cements it.

#260 statua angelam

Posted 26 December 2012 - 02:57 PM

That last post of Tamm's is one I agree with.

I would add that - at least up to the age of 6 months - many people putting that question have an implied "exclusively" in front of "breastfeeding."  

I breastfed DD for over a year.  I didn't get to a week of exclusive breastfeeding.  I think many women who want and intend to breastfeed, don't necessarily want and intend to do so exclusively (for 6 months).  Those are very different questions!

#261 sarkazm76

Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:40 PM

QUOTE (lucky 2 @ 23/12/2012, 09:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Which book did you chose? Sue Cox's book "Breastfeeding with Confidence" is a good one and easy to read.
http://www.amazon.com/Breastfeeding-Confid...e/dp/0684040050


I got Breastfeeding Take Two:
http://www.mothersdirect.com.au/catalogue/...tfeedingtaketwo

Recommended by Claire Fitzpatrick (I think is her name) from Free Your Parenting original.gif
Coincidentally bought it from the ABA/ Mothers Direct store as they had the best price biggrin.gif


#262 sarkazm76

Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:56 PM

QUOTE (It'sallgood @ 23/12/2012, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As far as I'm aware, the government public health has no position on using EBM or bottle feeding per se, nor does the government suggest to discourage combination feeding.
What annoys me greatly is that GOVERNMENT employees, such as Midwifes are pushing heavily teh ABA aims, not the government they are working for aims, to the degree that they now do.
Tamm


Ummm... the government does have a stance on encouraging breast feeding:
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/pub...-dept131109.htm

And I'm not sure how it works in other states but my hopsital is clearly pro-breastfeeding in their position (not that it stopped them being totally useless with the care that I got... but anyway)...

Caboolture is a Baby Friendly Hospital Initiative (BFHI) accredited hospital. BFHI accreditation supports the Ten Steps to Successful Breastfeeding, which promotes breastfeeding as the norm and where the mother's informed choice of infant feeding is encouraged, respected and supported.
We see part of our role is to provide you with accurate information to ensure you are able to make an informed decision about feeding your baby. Whilst we understand that breastfeeding is best for babies, we are committed to supporting your decision on how you choose to feed your baby.


The page I got this from also has more info and then links to the ABA, the BFHI, Qld Health Breastfeeding resources and a link titled "risks of not breast feeding" which goes to an ABA page as well.

Edited by sarkazm76, 03 January 2013 - 01:57 PM.


#263 JAPN2

Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:04 PM

QUOTE (sarkazm76 @ 03/01/2013, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Caboolture is a Baby Friendly Hospital Initiative (BFHI) accredited hospital. BFHI accreditation supports the Ten Steps to Successful Breastfeeding, which promotes breastfeeding as the norm and where the mother's informed choice of infant feeding is encouraged, respected and supported.
We see part of our role is to provide you with accurate information to ensure you are able to make an informed decision about feeding your baby. Whilst we understand that breastfeeding is best for babies, we are committed to supporting your decision on how you choose to feed your baby.

Sorry the BFHI doesn't in my view respect or encourage FF at all. In fact by making women jump a stupid hurdle of signing a form of 'consent' it actively work to discourage women from FF.

I have stated many times that BFHI is a midleading name and should be renamed Breastfeeding Encouraged Hospital Initiative. It also doesn't talk about any negatives that can be associated with BF for women's health especially those suffering PND.

#264 Melidia

Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:40 PM

QUOTE
As far as I'm aware, the government public health has no position on using EBM or bottle feeding per se, nor does the government suggest to discourage combination feeding.



QUOTE
Ummm... the government does have a stance on encouraging breast feeding:
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/pub...-dept131109.htm


Yes, the government encourages breastfeeding.

As Tamm pointed out though, there is nothing specific about EBM or bottle feeding (of EBM), or of discouraging combination feeding.

All of those methods can also ensure that a baby is getting breast MILK, which is actually the most important part of breastfeeding.  

If a mother cannot, for whatever reason, BREAST feed, then she should be supported and encouraged to supply breast MILK to her baby.  If that cannot happen, for whatever reason, then she should be supported in either mixed feeding or formula feeding.

Edited by Grey, 03 January 2013 - 02:41 PM.


#265 sarkazm76

Posted 03 January 2013 - 04:44 PM

Tamm also said that midwives, who work for the government, are pushing the ABA agenda and not that of their government.... I was merely saying that acutally and at least in my hospital, they push BF very much and so the midwives to that respect ARE actually following government guidelines, not the ABA.
That was all.  I never said the government postition was right or wrong.
I totally think women should be encouraged to do whatever works for them and their baby and if that means not solely BF then so be it.  I went through it too and we compliment fed pretty early on and got the flack from the MHN for it (well your supply will go down) even though I was only doing it once a day just to get some rest!!!  (DH was getting up to give one of the night time feeds as formula).


#266 Melidia

Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:18 PM

QUOTE
Tamm also said that midwives, who work for the government, are pushing the ABA agenda and not that of their government.... I was merely saying that acutally and at least in my hospital, they push BF very much and so the midwives to that respect ARE actually following government guidelines, not the ABA.


I guess it depends on whether or not you go by the ABA's literature, or by the experiences that women actually have with the counsellors, because there seems to be a difference between the two, as has been discussed in this thread.  

The experience of many women with the ABA is that they push the 'breast FEED at any cost' line.  This is in line with the experience that many women have in so-called 'baby friendly' hospitals.  I believe this is what Tamm was referring to.  The government does not have a position on EBM and mixed feeding or comp feeding, yet the midwives in these hospitals are either not giving mums information about those methods of feeding, or they are making mums feel bad for wanting to explore any alternative to straight, constant breast feeding. This is not what the Government literature promotes.  

I agree that women should be encouraged to do whatever works for them in their own particular circumstances.  Unfortunately this simply is not happening, as evidenced by the many negative experiences outlined in this thread alone.




#267 lucky 2

Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:37 PM

QUOTE
Sorry the BFHI doesn't in my view respect or encourage FF at all.

The BFHI 10 Steps is about hospitals trying to not interfere with you or your baby during the establishment of breast feeding/lactation, it's not about formula feeding.
The BFHI is governed by the Australian College of Midwives, it was developed jointly by the World Health Organisation and UNICEF in 1991.
The ABA isn't involved with BFHI.

What is the connection btn BFHI and PND?
I've never read any literature about BFHI and PND, do you have something I could look at regarding this?
QUOTE
What annoys me greatly is that GOVERNMENT employees, such as Midwifes are pushing heavily teh ABA aims, not the government they are working for aims, to the degree that they now do.

MW's are employed in many settings (just like RN's), govt (local, state, fed), in hospitals, in the community and privately.
Considering most MW's are also RN's, are MW's somehow more prone to practising in a more unethical or unprofessional manner than any other RN?
Any infant feeding policy would follow various govt guidelines (ie the NHMRC Infant Feeding Guidelines) and research findings etc.
The ABA is not involved with the governance of the BFHI or the formulation of individual Hospital Policies and procedure.




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