Jump to content

Why don't men cover their faces?


  • Please log in to reply
16 replies to this topic

#1 ~~~

Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:33 PM

I was reading this article today -
http://www.dailylife.com.au/life-and-love/...1129-2ai19.html

and it was really interesting to read this perspective. I have never understood, well, most religions, and particularly the differences in dressing for men and women (other than practical reasons).

Would love to hear people's thoughts about this Muslim woman's words...... And if you are Muslim yourself, have you ever felt like she does?

Thanks original.gif

#2 katpaws

Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:48 PM

It's easier to make women responsible for the crimes of men than for men to seek their own solutions to the male propensity towards violence, abuse and gratification of sexual needs. I think one "smart" idea by men was to create religions that were (are) patriarchal organisations where women could be subjugated in a legal and socially accepted way.

DH showed me a picture (ding the rounds of FaceBook atm) of a female university student holding up a sign saying something similar to: I go to a university that teaches me how to avoid getting raped but doesn't teach people not to rape. That pretty much sums it up for me.

ETA i know a lot of Muslim women are ok with the veils etc but i am commenting in general on all religions, not specifically theirs.

Edited by katpaws, 03 December 2012 - 02:06 PM.


#3 ~~~

Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:27 PM

katpaws, you raise interesting points about patriarchal society.

Years and years ago I saw this amazing documentary about the history of civilisation /society and how things changed from matriarchal to patriarchal at some point. Wish I could remember more about it.


#4 BetteBoop

Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:38 PM

QUOTE (~~~ @ 03/12/2012, 01:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I was reading this article today -
http://www.dailylife.com.au/life-and-love/...1129-2ai19.html

and it was really interesting to read this perspective. I have never understood, well, most religions, and particularly the differences in dressing for men and women (other than practical reasons).

Would love to hear people's thoughts about this Muslim woman's words...... And if you are Muslim yourself, have you ever felt like she does?

Thanks original.gif


What the writer is saying is the men have power and so their perspective is the only one that's important. Men define who is a temptation and to men, a woman is a temptation.

As katpaws said, the way to remove the tempation is not to exhibit self control. He doesn't have to do a thing to control himself. She is the problem.

So while a gorgeous man is a tempation for women, he doesn't need to be covered up because women have no power. A woman is powerless so she must control her own temptation. She can't expect a man to do anything to change to accommodate her.

Suggesting women are jewels who need to be protected is just a pretty way of saying she is a pretty object and nothing more. It's prettily worded oppression.

#5 Harlekijn engel

Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:42 PM

Years ago I was at an interfaith forum where I heard of an Islamic group - somewhere in Africa, I think - where the traditional take on modesty had been turned around and it was the men who covered and stayed indoors and the women who were out and about unveiled.  What was interesting to me wasn't so much that story, as the responses of the people in the room with me to it; the Muslims seemed to feel that this was some sort of betrayal of Islam, an aberration or departure from what should be and they took it quite personally.

That says something to me about how our experiences of the divine get caught up in and conditioned by our culture, our history, our psychology.  

I also find it interesting that in the article she doesn't make connections between her experiences and feelings and her faith.  Does she feel guilty for feeling rebellious about part of her religion?  Does she identify the freedom to express her feelings with the mercy and love of Allah?  I feel that the piece is incomplete without looking at that side of the question, but perhaps that's a stretch too far for an article like this?


#6 kpingitquiet

Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:43 PM

I read a huge story, once (I wish I could remember where...Slate maybe?) where an elderly Muslim woman (not middle-eastern, further into Africa) described life in her city when she was young. They did not do full body covering, at that point, in her neighborhood/community, but they started having horrible incidents of teen boys being kidnapped for wars and hard labor and so they adopted the full body covering to conceal which children were boys and which were girls. Of course, then the paramilitaries began taking anyone they saw because boys would be soldiers/workers and girls would be raped. The story went on from there into a huge twisting domino fall of how they went from a modest-but-not-veiled community all the way to a veiled-female free-male community, when and where a religious precept became involved. It was really quite frightening to see the development in her particular community.

#7 ~~~

Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:13 PM

I think I'm just depressed now sad.gif I wonder if the gender scales will ever get near to balanced or even swing back towards matriarchy.......

#8 Feral_Pooks

Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:07 PM

While I recognize that this is the author's truth, the covered women I know have chosen to be covered as an expression of modesty and of their faith, and/or due to cultural norms. So I think there is a huge spectrum of experiences when it comes to covering, including to what extent you are covered and what pressure exists to be covered, and I just caution the extension of this woman's experience to that of most covered women in Australia.

#9 CourtesanNewton

Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:10 PM

QUOTE
I wonder if the gender scales will ever get near to balanced or even swing back towards matriarchy.......

I don't think there has ever been a true matriarchal society. Equality would be nice though. I actually have no issue with dressing a particular way for religious reasons when both sexes have to do it. There was recently a show on SBS about the Amish, and the men have just as many rules about what they can and can't wear as the women do (ie must have facial hair, shirts only have 2 buttons and are closed the rest of the way to prevent "temptation", no belts as they are adornment, no jewellery, plain fabrics)

#10 noi'mnot

Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:16 PM

QUOTE (Pooks_ @ 03/12/2012, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
While I recognize that this is the author's truth, the covered women I know have chosen to be covered as an expression of modesty and of their faith, and/or due to cultural norms. So I think there is a huge spectrum of experiences when it comes to covering, including to what extent you are covered and what pressure exists to be covered, and I just caution the extension of this woman's experience to that of most covered women in Australia.


Similarly, in my social circles I have only come across women who choose to be covered (often against their family or partner's wishes or at least to the surprise of their family/partner). I'm fully aware that there are many women who are forced/coerced/obligated to be covered (similarly to this story) and I do work with some women in this situation. This has taught me that every woman's experience of being covered is different and contextual.

From my experience, her words are pretty common amongst women who are involuntarily covered. These stories are (again in my experience) also one large reason why family members don't like their women choosing to be covered, as they don't want them to be judged wrongly for their choices.

#11 Feral_Pooks

Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:28 PM

There are cultural/religious codes of dress and appearance for men in many Muslim communities, too, including around modesty. In fact, there are codes of dress around modesty in pretty much every culture for men and women.

A friend of mine explained it to me this way. As children, we would run around without our tops on sometimes. As we grew, we began to feel a need for modesty and to cover our chest/breasts. She said that for her, not wearing a scarf would be like for me, not wearing a top. She would feel undressed.

#12 ~~~

Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:56 PM

QUOTE (Pooks_ @ 03/12/2012, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So I think there is a huge spectrum of experiences when it comes to covering, including to what extent you are covered and what pressure exists to be covered, and I just caution the extension of this woman's experience to that of most covered women in Australia.
I definitely don't assume this is the norm for the majority or really any proportion of the female muslim population, I just have never heard it described from a Muslim woman's perspective, as in the questioning etc.

QUOTE (redkris @ 03/12/2012, 05:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I actually have no issue with dressing a particular way for religious reasons when both sexes have to do it.
See, I guess I think this is just a fairer way of doing it. Too many religions have the female having to be "modest" and covered up a hell of a lot more than the men in that faith. Even with women wearing veils in church etc.

QUOTE (Pooks_ @ 03/12/2012, 05:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A friend of mine explained it to me this way. As children, we would run around without our tops on sometimes. As we grew, we began to feel a need for modesty and to cover our chest/breasts. She said that for her, not wearing a scarf would be like for me, not wearing a top. She would feel undressed
I would be interested to see how this sense of modesty has been brought about in her life - why don't the men have to wear scarves or hats/head covering etc? I bet the boys she grew up with, while they cover up their chests etc, don't feel like they are being naked/immodest without a hat etc.... I can see the religious and cultural influences for sure, and I guess it is like that for all of us, what we are raised with is often what we feel is normal and of course majorly influences our views/practices.




#13 I look incredible

Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:02 PM

QUOTE (redkris @ 03/12/2012, 05:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think there has ever been a true matriarchal society.


Catholicism pretends to, with Mother Mary and all that. But who is allowed to hold the senior positions in that church? Men. From the Pope down. Anglicans? Same same, but without the faux reverence for Mary.

#14 ~~~

Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:10 PM

QUOTE (I look incredible @ 03/12/2012, 07:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Catholicism pretends to, with Mother Mary and all that. But who is allowed to hold the senior positions in that church? Men. From the Pope down. Anglicans? Same same, but without the faux reverence for Mary.
See, I see Catholicism as totally patriarchal......hmmmm.... thinking about this now....

#15 Harlekijn engel

Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:59 PM

QUOTE (I look incredible @ 03/12/2012, 07:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Anglicans? Same same, but without the faux reverence for Mary.


Ahem.  We have two women bishops in Australia now.  Change is afoot!

(And I have met some very Marian Anglicans!)

#16 **Xena**

Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:23 PM

I read an interesting story where a Muslim woman said she covered her face because she felt it shouldn't matter to society what she looked like and wanted people only to see who she was inside.

The way this article was worded though just reminded me of that poster that says "I changed schools because mine was teaching classes for women on how not to get raped instead of teaching classes on why people shouldn't rape others"

#17 **Xena**

Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:26 PM

QUOTE (~~~ @ 03/12/2012, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would be interested to see how this sense of modesty has been brought about in her life - why don't the men have to wear scarves or hats/head covering etc? I bet the boys she grew up with, while they cover up their chests etc, don't feel like they are being naked/immodest without a hat etc.... I can see the religious and cultural influences for sure, and I guess it is like that for all of us, what we are raised with is often what we feel is normal and of course majorly influences our views/practices.


I agree. In Australia we would baulk at women going topless down the street though it's okay for men to do so, yet in some indigenous tribes the women don't cover their breasts. A lot of what is acceptable seems to come from cultural norms and traditions.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users

 

The day my daughter almost drowned

We had six adults standing there, so I felt like I could relax a bit. After all, what could go wrong with so much supervision?

Sydney siege survivor names baby after victim Katrina Dawson

A Sydney barrister who survived the Lindt cafe siege has named her newborn daughter after her best friend who died in the tragedy.

Banishing bloat

How to avoid a bloated tummy

Here are some foods to eat in order to escape feeling ghastly and gassy.

The great new picture book for anxious kids

My son is a worrier by nature. I learnt long ago that it was completely pointless to say to him "Don't worry about it!".

Budget stripped more than $15b from families

The combined impact of the two budgets for low and middle income people was "devastating", new analysis by the Australian Council of Social Service shows.

Pregnant women urged to get flu shots

As the winter chill starts to arrive, NSW Health is urging pregnant women to get their flu shots.

65-year-old gives birth to quadruplets

A 65-year-old German woman, who already has 13 children, has given birth to quadruplets.

What you need to know about pregnancy and health insurance

It's not just waiting periods that couples need to consider - there are other factors to consider when thinking about health insurance.

Yummy mummy

Nicole Trunfio breastfeeds baby on Elle magazine cover

Australian model Nicole Trunfio has taken the concept of multitasking to a fashionable new level for Elle Australia.

Warnings after baby girl died while sleeping in bouncer

Parents have been warned about the dangers of letting babies sleep in bouncers and swings following the death of a three-month-old girl.

Coping with fatigue as a parent

Sleep deprivation is a real hazard of caring for a baby. But there are ways to manage the challenges of fatigue better.

A very 21st century issue: parents, parks and smart phones

It's not all the parents, and it's not all the time, but there is often at least one doing it. And sometimes, that 'one' is me.

Appliances

Faulty washing machines linked to house fires

More than 80,000 faulty Samsung washing machines pose a fire threat in homes throughout Australia despite a nationwide recall of the machines.

'I had a lotus birth and I loved it'

Lotus birthing is not all that common, but for a number of women it feels like the most natural thing to do.

7 things you might not know about postnatal depression

Despite its widespread nature, there is still a great amount of mystery surrounding PND - and it's important to try unravelling as much of that as we can.

Is your family's car part of the world's biggest safety recall?

More than 50 million vehicles recalled for potentially lethal airbag fault - is your car affected?

Why drinking water can be deadly for babies

H2O is one of the necessities of life, but for babies a seemingly harmless amount of water can be fatal.

Mother-in-law faceplants during proposal

He had it all planned: a romantic proposal on a windswept beach. The whole family would be there so they'd all be able to celebrate the joyous moment together.

A preschooler suddenly goes mute - and it's not just shyness

When our son stopped talking, our sense of loss was painful and acute.

The mums who ask for a 'wife bonus'

They run their homes like domestic CEOs and work tirelessly to improve their family's social standing. And now, according to a new book, they want an annual perk from their husbands.

Woman shares photo of dimple on breast to warn others of cancer risk

A widely-shared Facebook photograph of a British woman's breast has raised awareness of a more subtle breast cancer symptom.

Starting a family despite a low sperm count

"I'd never really failed a test - how could I fail this particularly manly test?"

It's official: we must better protect our kids from toxic lead exposure

New guidelines have been released, aimed at reducing children's harmful exposure to lead. But they still don't go far enough.

Trouble-shooting toddler social skills

Chances are your toddler's behaviour is all completely normal - but here's how to tackle some common social problems.

Helping your first-born welcome a sibling

We did sigh with joy at the arrival of a royal princess - but, mostly, we sighed with pity at the sight of Prince George being taken to meet her.

Farewell, daytime nap

I've been in denial and I'm not too proud to beg, but it appears I must accept the fact that you have gone. I need to let you go.

The identical triplets who are one in 50 million

The father of identical triplets born in a Texas hospital says his three daughters, including conjoined twins, are "a miracle" sent by God.

Seven questions you should be asking about your health cover

If the last time you assessed your health cover was five years ago, there?s a chance it may no longer suit your needs. To ensure it?s still right for your family, click here for seven questions to ask.

 
Advertisement
 
Advertisement
 
 
 

What's hot on EB

How to use gas effectively in labour

Many women in labour don't use gas effectively and suffer more side effects than benefits. Here's how to get the most out of this pain relief option.

'He has gastro but that's okay, right?': sick kid etiquette

We cannot place all children who are sick in a bubble till they recover, but we can give other parents a choice about exposing their kids to them.

Welcome to Winter

Now that the colder months are here, Essential Baby as all the information you need for staying healthy and happy during the chilly season.

Ada Nicodemou: 'I can never be completely happy again'

Home and Away actress Ada Nicodemou has opened up about the loss of her stillborn baby.

10 things to consider when you're thinking about trying for a baby

Before you start tracking your menstrual cycle and reading up on the best positions to get pregnant, there are a few other things you may want to consider.

How special surgery and IVF can create a post-vasectomy baby

Cricket legend Glenn McGrath and his second wife Sara are expecting their first child together, thanks to IVF and a delicate surgical sperm retrieval process that helped the couple to conceive.

Belle Gibson's mother 'disgusted and embarrassed'

The mother of disgraced wellness blogger Belle Gibson has accused her daughter of lying about her childhood in an attempt to garner public sympathy.

Doctor's mobile phone 'left inside c-section mum'

A new mum claims a doctor left his mobile phone inside her after delivering her baby via caesarean section.

I'm a mum and I'm following my dreams

I want my kids to know that no matter what happens in life, you can still be who it is that you've always wanted to be.

Those first daycare days

I had this innate 'mum' moment the other day.

'If one person had listened, my life would have been so different'

Katherine's father will die in prison for the horrifying sexual abuse of his daughter. Yet she is the one with the true life sentence.

This new plan undermines breastfeeding and baby health at everyone's expense

Mothers, babies, the health system and the wider society are going to pay the price of this new budget.

Couple to celebrate terminally ill baby's birthday in unique way

Baby Jai Bishop has lived at Starship Hospital for the past seven months, with his parents flying back and forth from Hokitika, 1100km away, to be by his side.

Life On Mars

It's men who need 'retraining', not women

We are all responsible for our own behaviour. Telling victims to harden up is wrong.

Baby Gammy's dad tries to claim charity money

The biological father of baby Gammy has reportedly tried to access charity money raised for the little boy's medical costs.

Where are the childcare places?

It?s all very well to encourage women to work if they choose to, but how can the measures lead to increased workforce participation when women are once again left holding the baby?

The pain of not having babies and not knowing why

After seven years of wishing, hoping, crying, punching pillows and shouting "why me?!", the end result is more than I ever thought possible.

Getting your family finances in order

Whether you're after a new car for a growing family, a bigger house, or are just fixing up your finances, here are the basics on borrowing.

Mum shares graphic selfie to warn against tanning

A mum has shared a graphic photo of her skin cancer treatment as a warning to others.

Does parenthood make us happier?

We can certainly gain higher levels of happiness when we become parents, but the trick is to not get overwhelmed by the pressures of raising our kids.

No, having a dog is not like having a human child

It's obvious these people dote on their pets, but they're barking up the wrong tree.

 

Top baby names

Baby Names

The numbers are in and we can now bring you the 2014 top baby name list for Australia.

 
Advertisement
 
 
Essential Baby and Essential Kids is the place to find parenting information and parenting support relating to conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids, maternity, family budgeting, family travel, nutrition and wellbeing, family entertainment, kids entertainment, tips for the family home, child-friendly recipes and parenting. Try our pregnancy due date calculator to determine your due date, or our ovulation calculator to predict ovulation and your fertile period. Our pregnancy week by week guide shows your baby's stages of development. Access our very active mum's discussion groups in the Essential Baby forums or the Essential Kids forums to talk to mums about conception, pregnancy, birth, babies, toddlers, kids and parenting lifestyle. Essential Baby also offers a baby names database of more than 22,000 baby names, popular baby names, boys' names, girls' names and baby names advice in our baby names forum. Essential Kids features a range of free printable worksheets for kids from preschool years through to primary school years. For the latest baby clothes, maternity clothes, maternity accessories, toddler products, kids toys and kids clothing, breastfeeding and other parenting resources, check out Essential Baby and Essential Kids.