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from the teachers' union?


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#1 BlondieUK

Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:15 AM

Ms Kelly tweeted to union president Mary Bluett. ''Children should never be pawns in industrial action. I still have my prep report. Think of something else.'' Ms Bluett said the decision to escalate the campaign had been taken as a last resort.

''This December, the Baillieu government will have had the AEU's log of claims for two years.'' She said initial industrial action, including a 24-hour strike and a ban on Coalition MPs visiting schools, had not led to the government changing its position.

''In escalating the bans we have chosen to highlight the enormous number of hours teachers spend outside the 38-hour week. Teachers work an additional 30 to 70 hours preparing the reports. This work is unpaid.''


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/call-to-...l#ixzz2CndE8oIb

The work is not unpaid, Ms. Bluett. Writing reports has always been a fundamental part of teaching.

This rationale is ridiculous. You get paid a salary and there are tasks that have to be done. Reporting is one of them. End of story.

#2 rosiebird

Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:24 AM

I think they deserve to be paid for those hours and for hours spent lesson planning.

#3 madmother

Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:26 AM

Okay, if they are to be paid for that (and I too thought it was a standard increment of the job), then there needs to be a performance based wage system introduced.

I can name quite a few teachers who should never be allowed near children!


#4 Froger

Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:26 AM

I think what she means is not that it is unpaid as such, but that it is invisible work (like much of teaching work), and therefore teaching is undervalued and underpaid as a whole (ie the pay rate doesn't take into account and fairly renumerate this invisible work). I think it is a fair enough comment. It conveys the essence of the problem.

ETA: I'm actually not sure how teachers are paid. But if they are only paid for contact hours with students, or for 9 to 3 work, then yes writing reports after hours would be unpaid work.

Edited by SarahM72, 21 November 2012 - 07:33 AM.


#5 casime

Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:31 AM

I think she means that teachers put in an enormous number of hours outside of the standard working day they are supposed to be paid for and this is undervalued and under appreciated.

Ironically, today is "Go Home From Work on Time Day".  There is a massive push in so many industries for people to address the work/life balance.  Yet here we are, demanding teachers continue to do incredible amounts of unpaid overtime so that parents can have a few touchy-feely comments on a report card.

#6 Feral Dinosaurus

Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:32 AM

I agree that the work is not unpaid, that salaried employees tend to have busy periods when they work heavy hours and leaner weeks when they ... lunch original.gif

However I still agree that teaching in general is under-valued in Australia, that the base wage should be higher and that the opportunity to be financially rewarded for doing this job should grow with experience as it does in other professions.

Not everyone will be a Principal, not everyone wants to be one. Being a great teacher shouldn't mean that person is only capable of making 150% of minimum wage when similar experience i other professions can have you earning 400% of minimum wage or more.

So...

I agree that writing reports is part and parcel of the job but I agree the teachers union have been fobbed off for a long time, not had their election promise met, don't get paid enough and generally they have my support. If not writing reports for a term actually gets the attention they require and deserve then I think parents need to ask questions of why the government has been stonewalling them for 2 years rather than why teachers are doing it.

#7 Charlie & Lola

Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:39 AM

Perhaps teachers should only have 4 weeks annual leave like most other employees? They would then have weeks of student free time for planning, professional development and administrative tasks.

#8 Feral*Spikey*

Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:43 AM

The average public servant works between a 7.5 and 8 hour day. If you throw in half an hour for lunch, that means they start at 9:00am and finish at 5:00pm. For the most part, teachers are public servants, so the 'standard hours' is a reasonable benchmark to use when working out how much unpaid hours teachers are doing.

Now, most of the teachers I know are at school from 8:30am to about 4:30pm (sometimes later if there are meetings and such).

THEN, they go home and do additional stuff, for which they don't get paid.

So, I think BlondieUK is wrong and Ms Bluett is right. Teachers do a lot of unrecognised paid work (that isn't contact hours at school), and in addition, they do a lot of unpaid hours as well.

I think its time the NSW government (and the rest of the states and territories for that matter) stepped up to the plate and paid them a wage that reflects the effort teachers put in.

#9 Feral*Spikey*

Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:46 AM

QUOTE (Charlie & Lola @ 21/11/2012, 07:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Perhaps teachers should only have 4 weeks annual leave like most other employees? They would then have weeks of student free time for planning, professional development and administrative tasks.


In which case, they should get paid for it, no? So why does that make it different to paying them for their after hours work? (Oh, and if you take holidays from people, you have to fold that back into their salary, as in 'pay out the unused days', you can't just take away an award condition without compensation)

It doesn't really matter when they do the work, just as long as they DO get paid for it. Which is the point the unions are trying to make.

#10 ~TCBF~

Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:49 AM

QUOTE
So, I think BlondieUK is wrong and Ms Bluett is right. Teachers do a lot of unrecognised paid work (that isn't contact hours at school), and in addition, they do a lot of unpaid hours as well.


I agree. But they also get eight weeks of extra leave per year. I have two children in junior primary school and I struggle to see how either of their teachers are working longer than the standard working day (9-5 with 1/2 hour lunch). All the kids are generally out of their hair by 3.20. There's an hour and forty minutes to do any admin and marking (not that my grade one and two children would have much in the way of marking). And they STILL get stacks of extra leave.

I think teachers have a very valuable job, don't get me wrong. But my sympathies toward their plight have diminished the more contact I have with the school system. Maybe because I was a public servant who worked really hard, long hours for similar money and didn't get even half as much leave?

#11 Expelliarmus

Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:50 AM

I think the bigger issue here is not that teachers will work to rule for one term on the issue of reports only, but that the government has had the log of claims for 2 years.

2 years.

So the government has not managed to come to an agreement with a key sector of it's workforce for 2 years and there are people who want to argue that it's teachers who are not doing their job by writing comments on a report card.

The assessments still get done. The grades still get sent home. The teachers elect to not do something that is not mandated totaling about 70 hours yet the government who has not done their job for TWO YEARS isn't put under the same fire?

It's not about which particular hours are paid or unpaid, it's about the fact that duties have been added and salary has not. The net result of this is that teachers are now doing more work for comparatively less pay. The workload is more excessive and renumeration isn't being given. The net effect of this is that there are now tasks that teachers are doing in addition to previously and there is no increase in pay.

That, in effect, is unpaid work.

Children are not pawns in this. They are still being taught, assessed, given feedback and cared for. Report card feedback is, quite frankly the least useful of feedback. It happens after all the learning is done. The only useful and effective feedback is that given as the child learns, feedback that is formative. Comments on a summative report are not necessary, they do not increase learning outcomes and are the least harmful work to rule action for children.

#12 casime

Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:54 AM

QUOTE
I agree. But they also get eight weeks of extra leave per year. I have two children in junior primary school and I struggle to see how either of their teachers are working longer than the standard working day (9-5 with 1/2 hour lunch). All the kids are generally out of their hair by 3.20. There's an hour and forty minutes to do any admin and marking (not that my grade one and two children would have much in the way of marking). And they STILL get stacks of extra leave.


You honestly have no clue.

#13 Expelliarmus

Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:58 AM

QUOTE (~TCBF~ @ 21/11/2012, 07:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree. But they also get eight weeks of extra leave per year. I have two children in junior primary school and I struggle to see how either of their teachers are working longer than the standard working day (9-5 with 1/2 hour lunch). All the kids are generally out of their hair by 3.20. There's an hour and forty minutes to do any admin and marking (not that my grade one and two children would have much in the way of marking). And they STILL get stacks of extra leave.

I think teachers have a very valuable job, don't get me wrong. But my sympathies toward their plight have diminished the more contact I have with the school system. Maybe because I was a public servant who worked really hard, long hours for similar money and didn't get even half as much leave?

So because you struggle to see it, it's not happening?

If you want to know who's not considering the children you need to listen to Peter Garrett and Christopher Pyne at last night's Gonski Forum. It was an excercise in tearing down the Labor government and making election promises along with some male posturing about who has the nicest electorate. Not until a parent asked a question about student support and funding for disability did either of them actually talk about helping the children. Mr Pyne didn't talk about helping children at all. Mr Garrett got to it right near the end and indicated that he had some idea of current teaching pedagogy which improves outcomes for children.

You want to know who's comments were all about the kids? Who said they weere committed to making sure our kids get what they need and deserve? The President of the AEU.

So I ask you, who's actually concerned about children and young people and who's concerned about winning the next election?

#14 Soontobegran

Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:03 AM

How are the children being made pawns?
They have received their year of education, there are reports written throughout the year keeping abreast of their strengths and weaknesses and they receive a report....they just don't receive the extended one but it is at the school for parents to access.
Teachers striking, taking days off, sitting the children in front of a TV screen at school then yes they are the pawns but otherwise no.


#15 Cat People

Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:03 AM

QUOTE (casime @ 21/11/2012, 08:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You honestly have no clue.


And you do?  Please enlighten us.

I agree with that pp.  Kids are gone by 3ish.  That leaves 2 hours.  Plus the holidays; which I know is not the whole holidays that kids get off.  But it's more than the standard four weeks.  A teachers' entrance salary is pretty damn good.  And although the cap might be lower than some industries, it's not that bad and pretty damn good compared to other industries.

The two year wait on claims is ridiculous though.


#16 Expelliarmus

Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:11 AM

Kids might be gone by 3:30 but how does it leave 2 hours when teachers arrive at 8? It leaves 30 minutes which is about how long it takes to pack up the classroom. School bell times are all different but most begin before 9 and finish after 3. Children are there for at least 15 minutes either side of each bell. The teachers school day is longer than 9-3. Measuring a teacher's working day by how long the children are present is false.

Casime is a teacher. She probably has some idea of the work she does.

Edited by howdo, 21 November 2012 - 08:12 AM.


#17 FeralRebelWClaws

Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:12 AM

The problem is also that the administrative tasks that are continually added just take more and more time.

E.g. accident report forms, behaviour support forms, in the ACT teachers have to fill out forms to track their leave forms because head office can't shuffle paperwork effectively! The paperwork required for excursions is ridiculous (over 10 pages of paperwork for 1 sheet that parents will see about it.) Add on top extra requirements when rolling out the AC and it just gets too much and there is only so much people can do in one day.

Re the extra 8 week holiday, it's not. Here in the ACT it is called stand down. Often we are doing professional development (there are requirements that so many days of PD are done, all out of school hours) on top of all the professional reading, meetings, parent meetings, concerts (100s of hours going into planning), coaching of sport teams, art clubs, homework clubs etc etc etc all these things don't magically happen. I think some parents would get a shock if teachers only worked the hours and days that those parents seem to think they do.

Over all for me, it's less about the money and more about a practical work load. Teachers do and will keep burning out until something is done. I have worked in IT in a corportate setting and it is NOTHING compared to the stress and expectations of teaching, but for FAR less money (though again, it's not about the money.) Plus, you can pee when you want. And you get lunch.

I think some people don't appreciate that all these extra things and tasks that get put on teachers take away from a teachers time to prepare lessons, so at the end of their day, it is their children that are suffering, not getting the best out of their teacher, because the teacher can only do so many things. Some lessons take more than double the time to prepare than to teach and do. Plus assessments... Plus reports... etc.

I can't speak for other states, I know that I am so restricted in what I can write in a report that I may as well not write them. They don't reflect what truely has been achieved or gone on in the classroom.

Edited by PussyDids, 21 November 2012 - 08:13 AM.


#18 Soontobegran

Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:13 AM

QUOTE (~TCBF~ @ 21/11/2012, 08:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree. But they also get eight weeks of extra leave per year. I have two children in junior primary school and I struggle to see how either of their teachers are working longer than the standard working day (9-5 with 1/2 hour lunch). All the kids are generally out of their hair by 3.20. There's an hour and forty minutes to do any admin and marking (not that my grade one and two children would have much in the way of marking). And they STILL get stacks of extra leave.


I am not a teacher but have the highest regard for them through my experience as a parent of students and the fact that I have 3 SIL's who teach and if to think their work days are the standard 9-5 is really naive.
Camps, excursions,sports groups and endless committees and hours of work prep all done at home because it can't be done at school  make the 9-5 expectation ridiculous.

#19 Cat People

Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:15 AM

So can you honestly say you guys work more than a standard eight hours/day?  When you spread it across 48 weeks?

And what is in your contract?  How many hours are stipulated?  A lot of industries don't have set hours - you work the hours needed to get the job done.

#20 FeralBob!

Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:18 AM

howdo has it spot on. TWO YEARS the Ballieu government has been doing sweet FA about one of the most important jobs in our society - educating our kids so that they turn into productive members of society. It's not a job I could do. But a bunch of overpaid politicians don't get hassled about their lack of work progress, oh no, because it's so much easier to hassle the teachers because they're the ones we see every day.

#21 casime

Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:22 AM

QUOTE
And you do? Please enlighten us.


Seriously, use your brain.  Imagine trying to put together seven hours of interactive learning experiences for a classroom of 30 students.  Make sure that they address required aspects of the curriculum.  Determine how they will be safe, effective and how you will assess the outcomes of those experiences.  Do up handouts, put together activities, make up interactive whiteboard slideshows to go with them.  Oh, and there'll be students with disabilities and special needs in your class, so you need to make sure that they get the most educational benefit out of those activities too.  During your lunch break, you get to walk around the playground making sure that no one is hurting themselves, because you'll have to explain to a parent why little Johnny scraped his knee playing chasey.  At the end of the day you'll need to talk to parents that are hanging around, clean up your classroom, set up for the next day of another seven hours worth of learning experiences.  Attend two hours per week of meetings after school while you're at it.  Oh, and don't forget saturday sports for some schools, concerts, parent teacher interviews.  

Do you think you could manage all of that in only eight hours per day with twelve weeks holiday that everyone seems to think teachers do?  Honestly?

#22 Stellajoy

Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:29 AM

QUOTE
Seriously, use your brain. Imagine trying to put together seven hours of interactive learning experiences for a classroom of 30 students. Make sure that they address required aspects of the curriculum. Determine how they will be safe, effective and how you will assess the outcomes of those experiences. Do up handouts, put together activities, make up interactive whiteboard slideshows to go with them. Oh, and there'll be students with disabilities and special needs in your class, so you need to make sure that they get the most educational benefit out of those activities too. During your lunch break, you get to walk around the playground making sure that no one is hurting themselves, because you'll have to explain to a parent why little Johnny scraped his knee playing chasey. At the end of the day you'll need to talk to parents that are hanging around, clean up your classroom, set up for the next day of another seven hours worth of learning experiences. Attend two hours per week of meetings after school while you're at it. Oh, and don't forget saturday sports for some schools, concerts, parent teacher interviews.

Do you think you could manage all of that in only eight hours per day with twelve weeks holiday that everyone seems to think teachers do? Honestly?


Pfft..I could totally mange that....but i would want to be paid 100k minimum for it.

#23 Feral Dinosaurus

Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:31 AM

QUOTE (Stellajoy @ 21/11/2012, 09:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Pfft..I could totally mange that....but i would want to be paid 100k minimum for it.


Oh please, it sounds so easy i might do it for free in the spare time I have from my other job wink.gif

#24 StarsInHerEyes

Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:33 AM

QUOTE
Seriously, use your brain. Imagine trying to put together seven hours of interactive learning experiences for a classroom of 30 students. Make sure that they address required aspects of the curriculum. Determine how they will be safe, effective and how you will assess the outcomes of those experiences. Do up handouts, put together activities, make up interactive whiteboard slideshows to go with them. Oh, and there'll be students with disabilities and special needs in your class, so you need to make sure that they get the most educational benefit out of those activities too. During your lunch break, you get to walk around the playground making sure that no one is hurting themselves, because you'll have to explain to a parent why little Johnny scraped his knee playing chasey. At the end of the day you'll need to talk to parents that are hanging around, clean up your classroom, set up for the next day of another seven hours worth of learning experiences. Attend two hours per week of meetings after school while you're at it. Oh, and don't forget saturday sports for some schools, concerts, parent teacher interviews.

Do you think you could manage all of that in only eight hours per day with twelve weeks holiday that everyone seems to think teachers do? Honestly?


Don't forget the secondary teachers taking year 12's. How they field student questions late at night via email and give after school/lunch time revision sessions to them, spend hours marking essays and practise exams etc

#25 ~TCBF~

Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:35 AM

QUOTE
You honestly have no clue.


Explain it to me.




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