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Tragic *sensitive*
abortion/pregnancy loss mentioned


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#1 MintyBiscuit

Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:30 AM

Just read this story, absolutely tragic sad.gif

http://www.essentialbaby.com.au/pregnancy/...1115-29dhn.html

While I don't personally agree with it, I do understand why abortion would be such a contentious issue in a country like Ireland. But surely a doctor's duty of care must override any religious issues? And any legislation against abortion surely needs to be rewritten if a distinction can't be made in instances like these

#2 B.feral3

Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:37 AM

This is so sad.  sad.gif

#3 Riotproof

Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:55 AM

I cannot believe they wouldn't help her. Her poor family.

#4 R2B2

Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:00 AM

sad.gif poor woman. that is horrendous.

#5 Escapin

Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:08 AM

I'm not sure tragic is the right word. Absolutely disgusting behaviour on the part of the doctors, and a completely preventable death. It's one thing when this sort of thing happens in the 3rd world, but in the 1st world? Words fail me.

#6 Feral_Pooks

Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:14 AM

I can't even imagine. Horrifying. No one should die like that.

#7 dreamingofcats

Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:18 AM

That is beyond comprehension, her poor family.

#8 :ButterBall:

Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:18 AM

This story made me cry.
How horrible, she was already losing her baby and they put her through that for some bullsh*t religious reason.
How is it not a human rights issue.

#9 Feral Dinosaurus

Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:22 AM

I saw this story this morning, it's just tragic for those poor people and extremely worrying.

Does anyone know if abortions are legal in northern ireland? Perhaps there is a vague loophole there for Catholic doctors or doctors in fear of incarceration to send a car up country?

Still, I agree with the supreme court, in these circumstances it should not be allowed to be illegal - it's denial of the human rights (with Ireland is a party to via the EUHR) to life, medical care, health, religion (if non catholics are denied on someone else's religious grounds)...I'm sure I could make an argument for more but it's too sad.



#10 dogsneaker

Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:23 AM

the article really angered me.

The poor woman, her husband and her family.

#11 elmo_mum

Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:29 AM

whilst i dont agree at all!!
i think that in this case she should have been induced to deliver a "non viable" baby....

BUT

in that country it is classed as abortion to deliver a  foetus which is breathing....


this is why religion sucks!!!



and fwiw - some drs in australia STILL refuse to give the pill for contraception, or make referrals for abortion!!!

and in victoria abortion is still illegal, unless the mothers health is at risk......

Edited by elmo_mum, 15 November 2012 - 07:35 AM.


#12 Squeekums Da Feral

Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:32 AM

How inhumane, they allow her go through all that cr*p and then die in the name of religion?  
Sick and twisted is all that is.
That poor woman and her family.

#13 Mercurial

Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:38 AM

Religion should never get in the way of doctors treating a patient properly - EVER.

#14 LookMumNoHands

Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:38 AM

Just another reason for me to despise all religions, the catholic in particular.

The poor woman, and her family.

#15 liveworkplay

Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:45 AM

After reading that I am left with the feeling there is more to the story then we are being told. Treating a patient for septicemia with antibiotics has nothing to do with aborting the fetus and one would assume since her "waters" broke, she would have had them anyway. As much as I also agree that in that circumstance they should have been able to induce the "birth", I am wondering if the fact she has to wait for natural labour had anything to do with her death in the first place.

#16 mini mac

Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:46 AM

Sad and unnecessary waste of life in the western world.

Bloody religion...

I can't believe the government can override the legislation to save a persons life!!!

#17 Jane F. Jetson

Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:07 AM

Disgusting, and very much an argument for a true separation of church and state. That poor woman.

#18 julz78

Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:34 AM

What a terrible tragedy for this poor family. I am anti abortion for non religious reasons except in specific cases including this where the mothers life is at risk. By refusing to induce this mother that effectively gambled with her life and signed her death warrant.

I find this really upsetting on a personal level as I can somewhat relate, my waters broke early, I went into premature labour, my baby died and I developed septicaemia and thought I was going to die too. But even though I did not choose to abort at least I was given the choice. When it comes to life and death I think everyone should be able to choose to live and not have that decsion made because of someone elses religion.

#19 EBeditor

Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:37 AM

I was just coming in to post this. So, so sad. She was having other people's religious beliefs imposed on HER body. And she died.

#20 Guest_zeus359_*

Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:08 AM

QUOTE (LookMumNoHands @ 15/11/2012, 07:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just another reason for me to despise all religions, the catholic in particular.

The poor woman, and her family.


How does this case about the application of the catholic religion in Ireland, make you despise all religions? Most religions don't permit abortion or only allow it up to a particular point except for in cases where the mother's life is in danger. Which would have clearly encompassed this woman.

So sorry for this senseless loss of life.

#21 purplekitty

Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:11 AM

QUOTE (liveworkplay @ 15/11/2012, 07:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
After reading that I am left with the feeling there is more to the story then we are being told. Treating a patient for septicemia with antibiotics has nothing to do with aborting the fetus and one would assume since her "waters" broke, she would have had them anyway. As much as I also agree that in that circumstance they should have been able to induce the "birth", I am wondering if the fact she has to wait for natural labour had anything to do with her death in the first place.
She wasn't given ABs until she collapsed with fever,chills and vomiting on the Tues. She was admitted on the Sun.
They still did not take her to theatre until the heartbeat stopped.
She was admitted with a dilated cervix, leaking amniotic fluid and in pain which increased during her stay.

The hospital was a state run hospital, not a Catholic hospital one as well.

I would really like to hear the doctors defence of their treatment of this poor woman. Abortion is not illegal in Ireland if the mothers life is in danger, even if it hasn't been legislated yet.
It just shows that having only that exception can lead to tragedy when personal religious beliefs(as I think it must have) enters into the decision process.

It makes me so angry.


#22 The 7 Dwarfs

Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:12 AM

QUOTE
and fwiw - some drs in australia STILL refuse to give the pill for
contraception, or make referrals for abortion!!!


And why shouldn't they be allowed to? It is their choice. Why should they be forced to do something which goes against their moral / religious etc beliefs? It's not like they are the only doctor around, People can find another doctor who will do it, big deal.

I personally would have no issue in assisting in this situation, but I would never for a second hold it against anyone who did.

QUOTE
Religion should never get in the way of doctors treating
a patient properly - EVER.


That is the countries LAWS. The priest didn't come running in and stop the doctor, they were abiding by the law. So you expect a doctor just to take the law into their own hands do you? She wasn't a native, she moved there. You go to another country, you accept to live by thier laws.  

There are laws here which prevent people's choices and force them to die long, slow, painful deaths. I've had plenty of people ask me to 'just give them something to end it', I have to sit back and watch people living like vegetables be fed via PEGS to the point where they start drowning in their own feed, switch it off till it clears, then switch it back on, all because legally we can't stop their feed. I don't agree with it, but not for a second would I ever consider breaking the law

QUOTE
After reading that I am left with the feeling there is
more to the story then we are being told. Treating a patient for septicemia with
antibiotics has nothing to do with aborting the fetus and one would assume since
her "waters" broke, she would have had them anyway. As much as I also agree that
in that circumstance they should have been able to induce the "birth", I am
wondering if the fact she has to wait for natural labour had anything to do with
her death in the first place.


I agree as well. If she was placed on the right ABs, having to wait for natural labour shouldn't have made much of a difference. And even if the induced labour occurred and the right ABs weren't given, then the same outcome may have occurred. The fetus was still alive until that point, so really, how did the fetus it self cause her septicemia?

I would bet the neglect from the doctor came from not providing the right antibiotics in a timely manner and the obvious lack of adequate pain management, rather than the lack of termination, however that doesn't make for a good news story does it?

Plenty of women go weeks with ruptured membranes attempting to prolong the pregnancy as far as possible and they don't die from septicemia because the risk of infection in managed adequately.

But hey, it was all the catholic churches fault don't you know!

Edited by The 7 Dwarfs, 15 November 2012 - 09:22 AM.


#23 mini mac

Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:20 AM

QUOTE (The 7 Dwarfs @ 15/11/2012, 07:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And why shouldn't they be allowed to? It is their choice. Why should they be forced to do something which goes against their moral / religious etc beliefs? It's not like they are the only doctor around, People can find another doctor who will do it, big deal.



Ah, actually this is about DUTY OF CARE, not just one's own morality. Because a doctor is a professional and shouldn't be imposing their personal or religious beliefs on their patients. They should be providing fair and safe best practice with the patient having all options presented and allowed to make an informed decision.

PS And the law in Ireland in theory is that abortion is allowed if the mothers life was in danger. Looks like the govt has a long standing issue passing the legislation about abortion for health (and rape) reasons

Edited by minimac, 15 November 2012 - 09:23 AM.


#24 liveworkplay

Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:20 AM

QUOTE
I agree as well. If she was placed on the right ABs, having to wait for natural labour shouldn't have made much of a difference. And even if the induced labour occurred and the right ABs weren't given, then the same outcome may have occurred. The fetus was still alive until that point, so really, how did the fetus it self cause her septicemia?


Yes so many unanswered questions. Also the article used such emotive language regarding pain. I really doubt that she was not given pain medication to manage any pain. Just like I doubt she was not given any antibiotics either. These are totally separate issues from abortion laws. It will be very interesting to see what comes out of the investigation.

QUOTE
I would really like to hear the doctors defence of their treatment of this poor woman. Abortion is not illegal in Ireland if the mothers life is in danger, even if it hasn't been legislated yet.


But was the mothers life in danger? We have no idea as we do not know the cause of the septicaemia. Generally pre term labour or induction does not amount to septicaemia. there could have been another cause entirely or if it was a result of the delivery, could very well have resulted if an induction had taken place as well.

It's all very well for people to jump on the "religion is evil" band wagon but until it is investigated we have no idea of the circumstances surrounding decisions made in this sad case.


I still feel such sorrow for the case, regardless.

#25 Liv_FERAL_sh

Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:21 AM

This is an awful story...I'm hoping like hell there is something more to it because refusing to intervene based on abortion laws makes absolutely no sense to me at all. I'm also struggling to comprehend why she was left fully dilated for THREE days without antibiotics.




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