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save our sleep or baby bliss
or no cry sleep solutions


44 replies to this topic

#1 José

Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:38 PM

I have just started reading save  our sleep.  Still have more than half the book to read but I'm not sure if it's for me. I have heard of baby bliss and the no cry sleep solutions. Can you give  me an idea as to what these approaches are? Any recs?

#2 Lokum

Posted 10 November 2012 - 12:14 AM

Not sure what your sleeping 'problem' is.

SOS is very routine-oriented.

No Cry Sleep Solution and No Cry Nap Solution is more about making a plan to tackle your issue.
So for some people, co-sleeping is not a problem, for some, they want to get the baby out of their bed. Some want the baby to sleep longer than 2 hour blocks at night, some want to break a feed-to-sleep habit, some would love to feed-to-sleep if it meant the baby would actually sleep!

Pantley helps you diagnose your 'problem,' and your goal. What do you want to change? Then she suggests a heap of ideas, techniques, environmental factors etc and you pick and choose from these to make a plan - only the things you're comfortable with.

Then you follow your plan, and hopefully the baby (possibly in small, slow increments) responds.

It worked for us. I wanted DS to stop screaming and wrestling me before day sleeps, and then to go to sleep by himself, in his cot.  It was taking 45 minutes of rocking him while he writhed in our arms, and then he'd sleep for 45 mins.

I started with the goal of getting him to fall asleep in my arms without screaming, and in less than 10 minutes. Then I was going to move on to getting him to fall asleep in the cot.

DH and I set up a huge, elaborate sleep routine that we both followed religiously. It included playing the same tune, at the same volume, and sitting in the same position on the bed beside the cot, reading the same book, and saying the same words.  And staying calm, consistent and backing each other. Within days DS was falling asleep without screaming, soon within 5 minutes. It became so easy and nice to cuddle him to sleep that we didn't bother with Part B (getting him to fall asleep in the cot.)

I liked No Cry Nap Solutions as it doesn't tell you what to do, or what the baby should do. It helps you figure out your own plan, depending on your needs and what you feel comfortable with.



#3 HurryUpAlready

Posted 10 November 2012 - 12:18 AM

I did a combination of Save Our Sleep & the settling pages from Baby Love (Robin Barker), and it worked a treat for us when DD was 6 months old (she was ready for it by then, and I was really ready for it by then).

She cried for 25 mins and slept thru the whole night, and every night since  -  she is now 9 months old.

I'd at least give it a go (depending on how old your baby is).

Before I tried it I asked the advice of all my friends who have kids, and they all said they had success with letting the babies cry. They all recommended it to me.

Even now if my DD wakes too early (ie. before 6am) & wants to get up, I give her the dummy, leave her to cry for a couple of mins & sure enough, she goes back to sleep for at least another sleep cycle (if not longer).

I'd try it OP, but that's just me.




#4 tamjk

Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:25 AM

I'm voting the No Cry Sleep Solution, it helps you work out what is causing the issue you are having problems with and then gives ideas for fixing it.
Save Our Sleep struck me as just treating the symptoms of an issue without working out what the underlying cause was, some people get lucky and have it work but if you have a child with an underlying issue that's causing the sleep issues I feel following this book can do a lot of damage.

#5 axiomae

Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:49 AM

Look up Sheyne Rowley's Dream Baby Guide. It's far more all encompassing and has variations on routines for different types of babies. It doesn't just focus on sleep either - it looks at all other things that may affect sleep, such as communication, independence, feeding etc.

#6 elle-M

Posted 10 November 2012 - 12:54 PM

I know you have to do what works for you and your family, but as a paediatric nurse who has studied child development and infant attachment, I would rather poke chilli covered sticks into my eyeballs than follow Tizzie Hall's SOS advice.

#7 pratique

Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:07 PM

I used a combination of SOS and robin barkers advice. It worked wonders for our family.

There are many strict routine haters on EB for obvious reasons. If you do use it you have to ensure it is done with common sense. Whilst we followed the general concepts and ideas, flexibility is needed. I would  recomend it.

We have never had sleep problems with our children.

#8 Missy Shelby

Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:15 PM

She whose name shall not be mentioned on EB...

I have never read TH but from what other EB members have said it is very much routine based and has not much room for flexibility, something you must have when dealing with a small baby that cannot verbally tell you want they want or what is wrong.

#9 soontobegran

Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:27 PM

QUOTE (**myboys** @ 10/11/2012, 02:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I used a combination of SOS and robin barkers advice. It worked wonders for our family.

There are many strict routine haters on EB for obvious reasons. If you do use it you have to ensure it is done with common sense. Whilst we followed the general concepts and ideas, flexibility is needed. I would  recomend it.

We have never had sleep problems with our children.



But if parents have no problems with their children's sleep then it wouldn't need 'saving'  (as per Tizzie) so wouldn't need to seek her help. Some parents just strike it 'lucky' with children who settle themselves into a great sleep routine.

Tizzie presumes there will be sleep issues just because parents can't go to sleep and stay asleep all night, Tizzie presumes parents will not be able to cope with the needs of their baby because their lifestyles are different after children.
Some parents realise life will change and are able to accept their baby's non routine knowing it is the norm and others will struggle with the changes...these people don't need to be told their baby is the virtual devil incarnate who has been born to make their lives sh*t. sad.gif

I'd prefer a reference book which has been written by a mother who actually has experienced a new baby, the hormones and the crazyiness because those who haven't can simply not relate with any sense of authority,knowledge or empathy.


ETA--Flexibility is definitely not a element of SOS. If parents can read it and tweak it to suit then that is cool but IME it is her way or it's the wrong way.

Edited by soontobegran, 10 November 2012 - 01:34 PM.


#10 mum2jp

Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:39 PM

The best book i have read was Pinky Mckay 'Parenting by heart' . She also has one called 'sleeping like a baby'.

Like you i began reading TH SOS when it was recommened by a friend as DS was having a rough patch sleeping. I didn't get very far into it before i knew it wasn't for me. I felt worse reading it as i knew i couldn't do the things that TH said you 'need' to do in order for your baby to 'learn' to sleep. It was such a relief to read Pinky's PBH and realise that there was nothing wrong with my parenting skills or DS sleeping patterns. He was just being a normal baby, wanted comforting and my instincts were already telling me what to do. DS at almost 2 goes to sleep fairly easily and sleeps through the night even though he was cuddled, rocked, fed to sleep untill over 1. He just grew out of the need when he was ready. Not sleep training him didn't make him a bad sleeper at all.

Edited by mum2jp, 10 November 2012 - 01:40 PM.


#11 LookMumNoHands

Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:45 PM

QUOTE (soontobegran @ 10/11/2012, 02:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But if parents have no problems with their children's sleep then it wouldn't need 'saving'  (as per Tizzie) so wouldn't need to seek her help. Some parents just strike it 'lucky' with children who settle themselves into a great sleep routine.

Tizzie presumes there will be sleep issues just because parents can't go to sleep and stay asleep all night, Tizzie presumes parents will not be able to cope with the needs of their baby because their lifestyles are different after children.
Some parents realise life will change and are able to accept their baby's non routine knowing it is the norm and others will struggle with the changes...these people don't need to be told their baby is the virtual devil incarnate who has been born to make their lives sh*t. sad.gif

I'd prefer a reference book which has been written by a mother who actually has experienced a new baby, the hormones and the crazyiness because those who haven't can simply not relate with any sense of authority,knowledge or empathy.


ETA--Flexibility is definitely not a element of SOS. If parents can read it and tweak it to suit then that is cool but IME it is her way or it's the wrong way.


Has Tizzie got no children of her own? I'd never heard of her before a few days ago.


#12 Ehill

Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:48 PM

I used Baby Love by Robin Barker (the teach to sleep section) for my DD at 6mo and it worked brilliantly.  

I have flicked through SOS and did follow the 8mo routine loosely (yes, I do think you can have flexibilty on the timings to a certain degree) and it did make a difference to DS who was somewhat more challenging than DD.

Pre 6mo I never really used anything but my babies were very good sleepers in the early days and only went pearshaped at 4mo plus.

#13 Studybug

Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:51 PM

I met Tizzie in late 2009, and she'd just had her first child days before.  I know this as she was telling every person who came to the stand at the toddler and baby show. So, no when the book was originally written, TH was not a mum.  I wonder if her methods have changed?

#14 Ehill

Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:54 PM

QUOTE (LookMumNoHands @ 10/11/2012, 11:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Has Tizzie got no children of her own? I'd never heard of her before a few days ago.


No she hadnt when she wrote her books but then my male OB had never VB'd a baby.  It didn't mean I trusted him any less.  Does an onchologist have to have had cancer to know what they are talking about or a chef eat every known food to be a good chef?  No, they just need to have done the required study, research and experience to be considered an expert.  I am no TH championer at all, I would never follow a strict routine for a small baby BUT i disagree with this being a reason not to follow her advice.  There are plenty of midwives and child nurses out there who have never had kids but they are still experienced.

Edited by Ehill, 10 November 2012 - 01:54 PM.


#15 pratique

Posted 10 November 2012 - 02:11 PM

QUOTE (soontobegran @ 10/11/2012, 02:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But if parents have no problems with their children's sleep then it wouldn't need 'saving'  (as per Tizzie) so wouldn't need to seek her help. Some parents just strike it 'lucky' with children who settle themselves into a great sleep routine.

Tizzie presumes there will be sleep issues just because parents can't go to sleep and stay asleep all night, Tizzie presumes parents will not be able to cope with the needs of their baby because their lifestyles are different after children.
Some parents realise life will change and are able to accept their baby's non routine knowing it is the norm and others will struggle with the changes...these people don't need to be told their baby is the virtual devil incarnate who has been born to make their lives sh*t. sad.gif

I'd prefer a reference book which has been written by a mother who actually has experienced a new baby, the hormones and the crazyiness because those who haven't can simply not relate with any sense of authority,knowledge or empathy.


ETA--Flexibility is definitely not a element of SOS. If parents can read it and tweak it to suit then that is cool but IME it is her way or it's thewrong way.


I don't agree stbg. It can certainly be flexible if you use common sense.  Yes her routines are rigid, but we used Them as a rough guide and it worked great.

As I said we never had sleep issues. Could be the book...could be luck.!

Edited by **myboys**, 10 November 2012 - 02:13 PM.


#16 soontobegran

Posted 10 November 2012 - 02:35 PM

QUOTE (LookMumNoHands @ 10/11/2012, 02:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Has Tizzie got no children of her own? I'd never heard of her before a few days ago.

She has now. She's not going to change her MO...it has made her a squillion the way it is.


QUOTE (Ehill @ 10/11/2012, 02:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No she hadnt when she wrote her books but then my male OB had never VB'd a baby.  It didn't mean I trusted him any less.  Does an onchologist have to have had cancer to know what they are talking about or a chef eat every known food to be a good chef?  No, they just need to have done the required study, research and experience to be considered an expert.  I am no TH championer at all, I would never follow a strict routine for a small baby BUT i disagree with this being a reason not to follow her advice.  There are plenty of midwives and child nurses out there who have never had kids but they are still experienced.


I do not subscribe to using this analogy. An Obstetrician, Oncologist etc deal with the anatomy and physiology of their patient. Some do it with more empathy and understanding than others but can provide their service anyway. An Oncologist will never pretend to tell you how you'll feel about your treatment nor tell you that you are wrong for the way you are feeling. An Obstetrician does not venture to tell a mother how to mother their child and nobody who has not had a baby will EVER understand the million ways we are pulled with the endless advice.
I know this as a fact because I thought I knew it all before I had children. I advised mothers on baby care/sleep techniques/ settling etc which in hindsight was the most ridiculous advice ever that I quoted from 'books' somewhat like SOS.

After having my own babies I wish that I could go back and retract some of the rubbish I told mothers and apologise for misleading them.
Having a baby is so much more about hormones and emotions that can not be understood by a non parent no matter how much they think they can and even when they have the very best intentions.

#17 =R2=

Posted 10 November 2012 - 02:37 PM

Stay away from books that tell you that babies are manipulative little beings and need to be put in their place. TH's SOS book does exactly this.

Elizabeth Pantley and Robin Barker KNOW all about babies and acknowledge that they are human beings and not little machines that you can program.



#18 soontobegran

Posted 10 November 2012 - 02:38 PM

QUOTE (**myboys** @ 10/11/2012, 03:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't agree stbg. It can certainly be flexible if you use common sense.  Yes her routines are rigid, but we used Them as a rough guide and it worked great.

As I said we never had sleep issues. Could be the book...could be luck.!



As I said, if you can tweak her advice to suit you than all and good. Unfortunately not everyone can do that and follow it to the letter.
It is these people whom I feel for.
There is no flexibity according to TH. It is her way or the parent is doing it wrong.

#19 Jenflea

Posted 10 November 2012 - 04:00 PM

I heard TH has admitted she doesn't do the stuff she tells other mothers to do in her own books.

#20 mum201

Posted 10 November 2012 - 04:21 PM

I have a FB friend who did SOS on a 4 week old!
Then a one of her friends was having a baby and she suggested SOS and said something like 'don't worry they will vomit and scream a lot in the first week, but you must stay strong'. So sad, a little baby like that just thinks they have been abandoned!
I am a mega pinky McKay fan. When I started parenting the way DH and I thought was right, everyone's reaction was 'you will spoil the baby by wearing, demand feeding, cuddling to sleep, not sleep training etc'. But then I read pinky and I didn't learn anything new, but it did make me feel like we were just parenting instinctively and that's fine. It was the book that told me to throw away the books so I ebayed baby love.

#21 jobo77

Posted 10 November 2012 - 04:36 PM

I only read Baby Bliss and found it quite good. It didnt recommend any strict routines and was more about following your babys lead and responding to the cues. She didnt focus on the day as a whole but more on each cycle of eat, sleep, play. There were suggested routines in there but nothing rigid and I liked that.


#22 soontobegran

Posted 10 November 2012 - 04:45 PM

QUOTE (Jenflea @ 10/11/2012, 05:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I heard TH has admitted she doesn't do the stuff she tells other mothers to do in her own books.


If this is the case then every person who have ever bought her book should get a refund.

#23 WaitForIt

Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:05 PM

I think its important to understand the background ofnthe authors. My understanding is that TH ran a sleep clinic before writing the book? In which case she is very results driven - you won't get much business if tell parents it's normal for babies to wake in the night or gets to the end of the week of training and the baby is still waking. CIO works, and it works quickly. As long as you do it correctly, which many find hard because it goes against all your natural instincts and is pretty cruel. Further, if you don't do it correctly, you will actually reinforce the crying and make the problem worse.

I've just finished reading Pantley. She states her background is a mum of 4, the last of which had sleep problems, and her techniques have been tested on 'many'. Although I like the concept of the book, these are pretty weak credentials too. Just because something worked for one mum doesnt mean it will work for the majority, and how many babies was it tested on? How were these babies chosen? However, an important part of her technique is repeated by many, including the CIO advocates, which is to have a bedtime routine, and a general routine to the day.

In the early days I practiced the advice given on the purple crying website, and had a baby sleeping through the night early on. Note I said had - 4 month sleep regression is now slowly subsiding, and now I suspect she is on the verge of teething... Sigh...

#24 LookMumNoHands

Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:12 PM

QUOTE (Ehill @ 10/11/2012, 02:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No she hadnt when she wrote her books but then my male OB had never VB'd a baby.  It didn't mean I trusted him any less.  Does an onchologist have to have had cancer to know what they are talking about or a chef eat every known food to be a good chef?  No, they just need to have done the required study, research and experience to be considered an expert.  I am no TH championer at all, I would never follow a strict routine for a small baby BUT i disagree with this being a reason not to follow her advice.  There are plenty of midwives and child nurses out there who have never had kids but they are still experienced.



QUOTE (soontobegran @ 10/11/2012, 03:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
She has now. She's not going to change her MO...it has made her a squillion the way it is.




I do not subscribe to using this analogy. An Obstetrician, Oncologist etc deal with the anatomy and physiology of their patient. Some do it with more empathy and understanding than others but can provide their service anyway. An Oncologist will never pretend to tell you how you'll feel about your treatment nor tell you that you are wrong for the way you are feeling. An Obstetrician does not venture to tell a mother how to mother their child and nobody who has not had a baby will EVER understand the million ways we are pulled with the endless advice.
I know this as a fact because I thought I knew it all before I had children. I advised mothers on baby care/sleep techniques/ settling etc which in hindsight was the most ridiculous advice ever that I quoted from 'books' somewhat like SOS.

After having my own babies I wish that I could go back and retract some of the rubbish I told mothers and apologise for misleading them.
Having a baby is so much more about hormones and emotions that can not be understood by a non parent no matter how much they think they can and even when they have the very best intentions.


Thanks STBG - you said it a lot better than I ever could  original.gif


#25 ~shannon~

Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:26 PM

QUOTE (=R2= @ 10/11/2012, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Stay away from books that tell you that babies are manipulative little beings and need to be put in their place. TH's SOS book does exactly this.

Elizabeth Pantley and Robin Barker KNOW all about babies and acknowledge that they are human beings and not little machines that you can program.

Agree! Would also add that "don't go there" list: The Baby Whisperer (patronising, makes you feel like a complete idiot).

We used Elizabeth Pantley and Barker's books and they have worked for us without any feelings of guilt, shame, idiocy or trying to manipulate our baby.



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